The link to the wikileak'd biography of Xi from a childhood friend was one of the most interesting parts of the whole thing to me. Terrific share. Also "America Against America" is available for PDF download on archive.org, for those who were curious. Great job with the essay!
Masterful piece. Incisive and probative to great depth while wholly avoiding presumptive, fill-in-the-blank commentary. A pleasure to read such unbeguiling info and analysis.
The article claims that Chinese anti liberal decades are a direct reaction to a trip America, an interesting thought to ponder!
The very idea that one man is behind all significant Chinese policies, a reality or a religious vision? Are you painting this portrait precisely because so little is known?
Thanks. Is he behind everything? I don't know. Obviously lots of people are weighing in, including Xi himself, and of course what he believes ultimately goes, since he's the Boss Man. But I think Wang has had a tremendous influence on him, yes, and people should at least know who he is.
Thanks. Came via Palladium and signed on. I've been fascinated by China for a long time and more recently started wondering how the US-style modern liberalism v. the Chinese managed state style will play out. Downsides for some, but this current Chinese reversion towards its founding socialist ethos is a great thing IMHO. And surely interesting. Can it be maintained?
I'm born and bred enlightenment liberal and love what that has given me but I can no longer see liberalism US-style winning anything long term. I'd like to be proven wrong.
Interesting to see China equals censorship. Could you bring something new? Typical western view of China. Personally, I suggest you learn some Chinese and see some real discussion. Not google translate.
After reading so many comments. It seems you guys felt into an echo, a self-enhanced echo. While we are opening eyes and taking comments from everyone, you guys are still self echoing. Many of the points are truly faults which are based on ignoring many other events. It seems you are just picking the events you noticed.
thank you very much for this article so full of substance and so empty of the current anti-china rhetoric that is mirrored by thousand of bots (sorry influencers I meant) on social media.
and to contribute something myself, there was another not so famous guy that was appalled by his visit in the states but his ideas spread to another movement
Yes, this is exactly what went through my head reading this. Qutb spent six months in Greeley, Colo. in 1949, and found the place to be full of materialistic, self-centered, hypocritical hedonists. He was particularly scandalized by the lasciviousness on display at a church dance one summer evening. Needless to say, it is a safe bet that Greeley in 1949 was the squarest place one could spend a Friday evening east of the Great Salt Lake. Perhaps all of this says more about what the idea of America means to totalitarian intellectuals than what they can tell us about ourselves. Little new under the sun.
thanks for the nice historical gossip, your description was hilarious. But I wouldn't call them "totalitarian intellectuals" because the only thing they formed is a critique to the western version of liberalism with consumerism and individualism as their main values.
The so called "third world" AKA ex colonies got that they needed western ideas if they wanted to decolonise and develop independently; nationalism being maybe the most important one. So for both of them that's the starting point as intellectuals. It´ s by visiting the West and exploring the western dead ends that they become opposed to the spread of these ideals to their countries. We can recognize and accept their critique the same way that Lasch uses the critique on modernity to outline it's borders.
Calling them totalitarians is kind of misleading as many aspects of US liberalism are totalitarian in their nature and expression, being "white supremascist" or "communist" depending the fashions of the era. Both Qutb and whang as far as I can tell oppose the establishment of the western liberal values as detrimental to their societies, that doesnt make them totalitarian, as those liberal values have little to do with liberty, or to be more precise the accept only a very narrow definition of liberty :)
Mr. Lyons, I am new to your work but find it intriguing, like this piece on Wang Huning. Could you share with us more details about who you are, your biography, education, and professional experience so we may better judge the provenance of your work? Thank you.
Pretty clear that our host is being deliberately anonymous. That's his (her?) perogative, of course. (But not "their"; I refuse to use plural pronouns for singular individuals. But if anyone wants to be called "it", I will oblige.)
Enjoyed the article, thanks. Your read seems to be that the CCP's primary interest is the long term betterment of the Chinese nation and people. An interpretation focused on the CCPs self preservation could also fit the facts, as liberalism is a threat to authoritarianism. It needn't be the virtuous view of liberalism that was the West's hope for undermining China; it can also be the nihilism, social decay and potential chaos that you describe as also being associated with liberalism which threatens authoritarianism. Assuming I'm reading you correctly, why do you think paternalism and patriotism are better explanations for what the CCP is doing than party self preservation?
No, I'd definitely say their goal is self-preservation of the authoritarian regime. They just think they must take the current course of action to preserve social stability. Whether they are genuine patriots or not at the same time, I can't know.
Those are mutually reinforcing. The Party is the best thing for China the nation, which deserves to have the best things. Ask the American patriots who stormed the US Capitol on Jan 6 about the fusion of patriotism and authoritarianism.
“While Western modern civilization can bring material prosperity, it doesn’t necessarily lead to improvement in character.”
Agree. It also relies on removing prosperity from others in its zones of extraction.
I have a hunch that culture is diametrically opposed to industrialism, not western modernism (maybe they are the same thing though). The destruction of traditional cultures has gone hand-in-hand with industrial expansion, in both capitalist and socialist areas. To imagine that a centralised organisation can create a culture has not worked so far, and I doubt it ever will. It smacks of industrialism: heirarchical, mechanistic, control-obsessed. Culture springs from the land, your interaction with it and the people around you. It might grow from there to cover a large area.
I am not suprised Wang has reacted the way he has after seeing the West in the flesh instead of in books, but to react is to lose control. It may not end well.
The link to the wikileak'd biography of Xi from a childhood friend was one of the most interesting parts of the whole thing to me. Terrific share. Also "America Against America" is available for PDF download on archive.org, for those who were curious. Great job with the essay!
Angela Nagle summarizes it nicely here: https://angelanagle.substack.com/p/america-against-america
I much prefer source material to summaries, but thank you for sharing the link!
Masterful piece. Incisive and probative to great depth while wholly avoiding presumptive, fill-in-the-blank commentary. A pleasure to read such unbeguiling info and analysis.
Tremendous post!
The article claims that Chinese anti liberal decades are a direct reaction to a trip America, an interesting thought to ponder!
The very idea that one man is behind all significant Chinese policies, a reality or a religious vision? Are you painting this portrait precisely because so little is known?
Thanks. Is he behind everything? I don't know. Obviously lots of people are weighing in, including Xi himself, and of course what he believes ultimately goes, since he's the Boss Man. But I think Wang has had a tremendous influence on him, yes, and people should at least know who he is.
Thanks. Came via Palladium and signed on. I've been fascinated by China for a long time and more recently started wondering how the US-style modern liberalism v. the Chinese managed state style will play out. Downsides for some, but this current Chinese reversion towards its founding socialist ethos is a great thing IMHO. And surely interesting. Can it be maintained?
I'm born and bred enlightenment liberal and love what that has given me but I can no longer see liberalism US-style winning anything long term. I'd like to be proven wrong.
This is one of the most interesting things I've read in a long time. I'd love to know more about Wang (and China generally).
Interesting to see China equals censorship. Could you bring something new? Typical western view of China. Personally, I suggest you learn some Chinese and see some real discussion. Not google translate.
What kind of Chinese language material would you suggest?
I won’t suggest anything. Anything anyone suggests bring bias. Go learn by yourself. Learn and think, not just listen.
After reading so many comments. It seems you guys felt into an echo, a self-enhanced echo. While we are opening eyes and taking comments from everyone, you guys are still self echoing. Many of the points are truly faults which are based on ignoring many other events. It seems you are just picking the events you noticed.
thank you very much for this article so full of substance and so empty of the current anti-china rhetoric that is mirrored by thousand of bots (sorry influencers I meant) on social media.
and to contribute something myself, there was another not so famous guy that was appalled by his visit in the states but his ideas spread to another movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb
Yes, this is exactly what went through my head reading this. Qutb spent six months in Greeley, Colo. in 1949, and found the place to be full of materialistic, self-centered, hypocritical hedonists. He was particularly scandalized by the lasciviousness on display at a church dance one summer evening. Needless to say, it is a safe bet that Greeley in 1949 was the squarest place one could spend a Friday evening east of the Great Salt Lake. Perhaps all of this says more about what the idea of America means to totalitarian intellectuals than what they can tell us about ourselves. Little new under the sun.
thanks for the nice historical gossip, your description was hilarious. But I wouldn't call them "totalitarian intellectuals" because the only thing they formed is a critique to the western version of liberalism with consumerism and individualism as their main values.
The so called "third world" AKA ex colonies got that they needed western ideas if they wanted to decolonise and develop independently; nationalism being maybe the most important one. So for both of them that's the starting point as intellectuals. It´ s by visiting the West and exploring the western dead ends that they become opposed to the spread of these ideals to their countries. We can recognize and accept their critique the same way that Lasch uses the critique on modernity to outline it's borders.
Calling them totalitarians is kind of misleading as many aspects of US liberalism are totalitarian in their nature and expression, being "white supremascist" or "communist" depending the fashions of the era. Both Qutb and whang as far as I can tell oppose the establishment of the western liberal values as detrimental to their societies, that doesnt make them totalitarian, as those liberal values have little to do with liberty, or to be more precise the accept only a very narrow definition of liberty :)
Mr. Lyons, I am new to your work but find it intriguing, like this piece on Wang Huning. Could you share with us more details about who you are, your biography, education, and professional experience so we may better judge the provenance of your work? Thank you.
Pretty clear that our host is being deliberately anonymous. That's his (her?) perogative, of course. (But not "their"; I refuse to use plural pronouns for singular individuals. But if anyone wants to be called "it", I will oblige.)
"...is simply a fundamental factor of modernity".
That's the word I was just going to point to.
Excellent article - I appreciate all the thought and effort that went into this.
Was struck by how similar the line of argumentation is w/ my own view on common prosperity..a great omission of mine to not tie in Wang's worldview/influence https://jonathonpsine.substack.com/p/groping-the-elephant-of-common-prosperity
Thanks Jon, I enjoyed your piece on social atomization and the survival of the CCP. That's directly related to what I was discussing here.
there is, however, a decent overview of him in english:
Haig Patapan & Yi Wang (2017): The Hidden Ruler: Wang
Huning and the Making of Contemporary China, Journal of Contemporary China, DOI:
10.1080/10670564.2017.1363018
Enjoyed the article, thanks. Your read seems to be that the CCP's primary interest is the long term betterment of the Chinese nation and people. An interpretation focused on the CCPs self preservation could also fit the facts, as liberalism is a threat to authoritarianism. It needn't be the virtuous view of liberalism that was the West's hope for undermining China; it can also be the nihilism, social decay and potential chaos that you describe as also being associated with liberalism which threatens authoritarianism. Assuming I'm reading you correctly, why do you think paternalism and patriotism are better explanations for what the CCP is doing than party self preservation?
No, I'd definitely say their goal is self-preservation of the authoritarian regime. They just think they must take the current course of action to preserve social stability. Whether they are genuine patriots or not at the same time, I can't know.
Those are mutually reinforcing. The Party is the best thing for China the nation, which deserves to have the best things. Ask the American patriots who stormed the US Capitol on Jan 6 about the fusion of patriotism and authoritarianism.
“While Western modern civilization can bring material prosperity, it doesn’t necessarily lead to improvement in character.”
Agree. It also relies on removing prosperity from others in its zones of extraction.
I have a hunch that culture is diametrically opposed to industrialism, not western modernism (maybe they are the same thing though). The destruction of traditional cultures has gone hand-in-hand with industrial expansion, in both capitalist and socialist areas. To imagine that a centralised organisation can create a culture has not worked so far, and I doubt it ever will. It smacks of industrialism: heirarchical, mechanistic, control-obsessed. Culture springs from the land, your interaction with it and the people around you. It might grow from there to cover a large area.
I am not suprised Wang has reacted the way he has after seeing the West in the flesh instead of in books, but to react is to lose control. It may not end well.